" How is it then that we seem to actually see reports of what appears to be real magic? One example might be an evangelist or some holy person who performs the “laying of hands” to heal even the most extreme physical ailments. It’s impossible for this to happen, and there can be no trick. People are simply healed. The question is…how? "




I will respond to this part first.I believe that this is an example of God using His children as His instruments. When it comes to legitmate true hearted children of God performing the "laying of hands". But here is how I know it can be a true event. My father was Pentacostal, my mother Baptist, and I was raised Baptist. Growing up, I had never seen "laying of hands" in our Church, and thought it was fake when I watched it on TV.



For 5 summers in a row, I suffered bad bad cases of Poison Ivy out breaks. I was declared in my part of Ohio, the worst case of poison ivy patient in their history. They spent months with top doctors studying how it was that my immunity to poison ivy could be so non existant after so many outbreaks. The last summer was the worst. After taking 15 medications, and months hiding in my bedroom, the doctors were still unable to rid my body of the softball sized open oozing wounds that covered every part of my body, from head to toe. Anyways, it got to the point where the doctor said, if I couldnt build my immunity soon, it could lead to a life and death thing. I know..dying from poison ivy? Doesnt sound like a real thing, but it was to me. My father talked me into going to a Church service at his Pentacostal church one sunday evening so that they could pray over me. I was scared outta my mind. Me? Go to his church and have them "pray over me"? What was this going to be like? So as the service went through, my father stood up and requested that him , his family, and the members come pray over me that I be healed of my poison ivy. So with stomach fluttering, I stood up, and went to stand before the Pastor. My father along with many aunts and uncles, and church members stood around me and begin the "laying of the hands". The Pastor placed annointing oil on my forehead along with his hand and the praying began. At first , I was only aware of all the hands on me and all the vocal individual prayers being said around me. I closed my eyes, and kind of "let go". In that, I mean, I just let it proceed with out really focusing on what was taking place. It wasnt even 2 minutes into the praying that I felt it. I cant even explain it. It was like something moved inside of me. I felt it in my heart physically. Something I dont know..passed through me, touched me. I cant explain. But my aunt knew it . As soon as the praying was finished, my Aunt Nita hugged me, and whispered in my ear " I can see it in your eyes. You felt something". It wasnt long after that the sores began to heal.After that summer, I never broke out with posion ivy again. Was it magic?? No. God states it in the Bible, that He does not condone any sort of magic. I consider it a Miracle. I believe that He used the people around me that night, as instruments for His will. "Where two or more are gathered in My Name, there shall I be"And I believe that is what happened.


An on the other hand. I bellieve that there are some Evangelist out there that don't have true hearts. There are a few on TV that I can watch for 5-10minutes and all I hear is about " I , I , I , I" And I believe that they are so caught up in themselves and what "they" can do, that the "mriacles" they perform one after another are from the evil side of the supernatural. I believe that they are so caught up in their own " performace" that they become vunerable to being used by evil.



Now as for the other types of "magic" out there. I agree with what you said. As a young teen, I became intrigued by the thought of performing "magic" I even bought a few books. Thanks to God, that this "phase" in my life did not last long. But reading the books, will tell the truth to anyone. You have to ask certain "gods" or "spirits" to assist you in many of the rituals. Just as well, there are some "spells" out there that are based on an individual level. Where, if "magic" was accomplished ( meaning the spell worked ) that the individual may assume they did it on their own. This is not true. I believe that all, Wican, Pagan, Dual Path, and many other types of "religions" or "practices" involve evil "beings" assisting that person ( or group) into believing they are doing something , and have a "gift". When in all actuality they are being tricked my Satan and his minions. (sp?). Yeah yeah, go ahead and tell me that there is Dark Magic, and White magic. It doesnt matter. Magic is bad all together. Even if you think that you are only doing good, or that the things you do dont affect others . It is still wrong.



But this brings us to gifts. How do we know that God has simply not given someone a gift? That, I can not answer. I have a book that I got from my Church library. It speaks on how God can give gifts to people, and how to differitiate those from people who think they have magical gifts. But since I dont have it with me. I can't comment too much on that. Maybe some psychics are real. And I mean, the ones that are out there trying to find missing people, and so on. Perhaps, God granted them these gifts. Then again, maybe some psychics are real and abuse the gift God gave them for personal gain. I dont know. I only know that there is a difference between God's Miracles, and Magic.


And for those that wish for Bible references that state Gods disdain for witchcraft. Here ya go:

Exd 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

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Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Deu 18:11 Or a charmer , or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

it could lead to a life and death thing. I know..dying from poison ivy?

Oh I beleive it. My mother as a young girl was playing under the sprinkler one hot fall day, and her neighbors were burning their brush in the backyard. It turns out the neighbors were burning poison ivy in with their brush, and my mother ended up with internal poison ivy. Imagine this crap in your lungs? She was hospitalized for more than a week over this.

It wasnt even 2 minutes into the praying that I felt it. I cant even explain it. It was like something moved inside of me. I felt it in my heart physically.

Straight up disiples of God doing what Jesus told us to do...go out and heal. Miraculous IMHO.

Was it magic?? No. God states it in the Bible, that He does not condone any sort of magic.

By our definition of magic, supernatural intervention, I can accept the laying of hands to be considered magic.

But this brings us to gifts. How do we know that God has simply not given someone a gift?

Did you have any doubt with your 'laying of hands' experience? God wants us to know he is answering our prayers, I have found little doubt when God moves around me; it's very clear to me.

The only thing I know about magic is that Criss Angel is a witch...he does crap I can't even begin to try and decipher...He pulled a lady in half on a park bench...and then her torso started running away while her legs were standing there. Now that's freakin' magic.

~Zoo

he does crap I can't even begin to try and decipher

He is pretty damn good

Speaking of love potions it is technically possible. Any sufficiently strong narcotic has the potential to engender strong feelings of attraction in a human being, generally by removing their inhibitions and stimulating pleasure centres of the brain. Permanent potions though are still beyond our science.

As for other alleged magic (and magick, when it comes to it) well, I have very little faith in it. It seems so utterly useless that frankly I haven't got much time for it even if it is real.

Laying on of hands can provide some benefit in conjunction with a properly structured medical plan, but realistically you could usually achieve a very similar effect by giving the patient sugar pills and convincing them the pills are a cure. It's just the Placebo Effect in action.

chris angel baffles me almost every time. i also have a david blaine "close up magic" special on my DVR that has been running here and there on cable. a few of those tricks just blow my mind.

the most impressive show i've ever seen in person is penn & teller tho. they make fun of other magicians and illusionists in their show. their old time con artists so the whole show is like 1 big set up. every time they seem to be pulling off some big illusion, it turns out to be some cheap scam. then, when you think they are just pulling another cheap scam they blow your head off with an incredible illusion.

penn and teller also do a show on showtime called "bullshit." in which they debunk a lot of commonly held myths. this all comes from their membership in an old skeptics society that does virtually nothing but debunk psychics and myths. it can be found @ randi.org....interesting note about the skeptics group is that james randi has had a "million dollar challenge" out there since like the 70's i think (i think the amount used to be less, but the challenge was the same) to anyone who can actually demonstrate psychic ability without being found out as an illusionist, mentalist, cold reader, etc....

to this day, multitudes have tried, all have failed or been found out. this includes some big names in the psychic game.

personally, i'll believe in (controlled) psychic powers when i read the following headline..."psychic wins lottery."

To: Xythe

A very interesting post. Not so much for its content, which is a mishmash of Christian-based pre-supposition, but for its speculative nature - which I take to be serious and genuine.

To: little whip. You were my first teacher in these things and we still have not exhausted all the things you have to teach me. An excellent response, well-ballanced, and full of meaning for those that have eyes to see and ears to hear, without being incautious with those things entrusted to you. You called me to yourself for your own purposes - but I could not have been better served by any other in relation to my own.

Illusionists are illusionists and nothing more. Criss Angel is one more illusionists, though a particularly adept one. The proof is in the fact that a) you can't cut a living torso in two without shedding immense amounts of blood; and if you could, the survivor would be driven crazy by the trauma - and particularly the trauma of seeing one's lower half get up and leave one's upper half behind. If the woman concerned is now demented I'll believe Criss Angel to be a Magickian, and not an illusionist.

Magickian or not it doesn't really matter. All real Magick, whether of some spectacular type or whether (as I believe) occurring almost always via means which are indistinguishable from the 'normal' and the 'everyday', occurs in the same way.
Through will speaking the reality of desire in spiritual realms (the 'as Above') and being manifested in earthly realms (the 'so Below'). Every other element added (ritual, crosses, robes, chalices, knives, swords, sprigs of holly, incantations, hymns, prayers, laying on of hands, anointing with oil, asperging with water - all of the different 'tools' involved in every religious practice) is added to inflame desire, focus will, and mark off both a mental state and a physical space as something separate from and Other to the 'normal' and the 'everyday'.

The 'laying on of hands' is a perfect example. Its Ritual nature (which means its 'Otherness') is clearly exhibited in the nervousness felt by pureintentions. Its effect which was achieved through invocation (in this case spontaneous prayer in the manner of the Pentecostal tradition), focused will, and receptivity (in this case desperation) on the part of the recipient. The source of the transformation is in 'the As Above' - in this case identified as one version of Christ and His Holy Spirit, the Pentecostal version.

Countless Christians have maintained the sincere conviction that this Christ and Spirit exist, and have done so continuously for virtually two thousand years. That's a lot of conviction. In doing so they have, through their will and desire, spoken that Christ and His Spirit into being, making it accessible as the ground of such Miracles as pureintentions reports. This is not to say that this 'Christ' is anymore God than I am, or purintentions is. It is to say no more than that Christ and His Spirit exists, and are accessible as the ground of Miracles.

Much of Xythe's pre-supposition derives from confusion which in itself comes from the belief that because Christ exists, Christ must be God.

Fiddlesticks.

God is to Christ what I am to the virus and the nematode - that, and infinitely more.

As to Angels and Demons. I see no reason to believe in cadres of 'fallen Angels, loyal Angels, and Demons. Angels, even as they are described in the Bible are sufficiently inhuman to easily fulfil all three roles, carrying out incomprehensible purposes with a ruthlessness beyond imagination. Demons are nothing other than Angels fulfilling those commands that we as humans find cruel or terrible - such as to distinguish on purely aesthetic grounds (so far as I can see) between the Damned and the Saved (if that idea isn't in itself simply one more hangover from my own Christian past).

I believe there to be Angels only, all of them, even 'Satan', obedient to a Will that can't be comprehended.

You can talk to Angels far more easily than you can talk to God, and yes, they are required by that same Will to obey us. But some of them are devouring lions, and unless you're serious in the desire to be devoured it's not wise to talk to them.

Be careful what you awaken, lest you be unable to put it back to sleep.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

LittelWhip and EmperorofIceCream,

I want to thank you both very much for your comments; this is exactly what I was hoping for; people whom understand magic at a higher level.

I myself am ignorant to a good extent. However, not completely

Like most people, I became interested in the occult at a young age and began my studies. I've read a lot of material on the subject. I am somewhat familiar with Crowley. I am familiar with the Ancient Qabbalah and in particular the journal of Abramelin. I am leary of mentioning various magic users and the various tomes involving magic (I hold to the modern spelling by choice), because a fair amount of this information can be accesed via the internet and I really don't want to encourage ignorant people to seek out this information.

I want to take the time to respond to both of your comments in detail. I'm far from the best writer, in fact I don't consider that I'm even slightly good at it. I need the time to organize my thoughts and to prepare my responses.

So, I ask you both to please be patient with me, and please keep an eye on this thread. I would appreciate it greatly. TIA

xythe

p.s. I would be more than happy to discuss technical and the more "meaty" matters via email if that is preferrable....LouRon@gmail.com

Xythe.

There are forces outside this physical dimension to be sure and can and are used for a variety of purpose.
Remember though, that Satan wished for Christ to call upon the angels, and Christ said that one should not tempt the Lord thy God. One does not step in front of a speeding train with the intented purpose of being wisked away to safety by angels.
Demons , however, those reserved in chains until judgement , will do just about anything to convince a person that there is majych (I thought I would try yet another spelling of the word). "Magikians" have the ability to call upon the spirits in prison to work all sorts of tricks, anything to thumb their nose at God and to convince others that there is indeed magikal powers at their command. Criss Angel is a bit spooky.......levitation, lifting cars off the ground, bending a palm tree over.......those things I believe are real, but he is getting help from the other side, but regardless what you wish to call it, it is to deceive and takes focus away from the Father and turns it toward the occult as a saving power of sorts.
Psychics are the same and some actually appear to do good........helping find trapped victims.....criminals, that sort of thing, but still, we are to steer clear of such things for they do interfere with God's overall plan - As if there is not enough of that already

Orionsbelt 77

Psychics are the same and some actually appear to do good........helping find trapped victims.....criminals, that sort of thing, but still, we are to steer clear of such things for they do interfere with God's overall plan

What makes you think psychics aren’t part of God’s plan in the first place? It’s not the psychic’s choice that he or she is born psychic, after all. If the psychic is illumined and guided by Christ, then a lot of good work can be done for God. Knowledge of the hidden side of life and the laws that govern them, (which is what occult teachings are about), can be of great benefit to people on this side who are ready for it, or who wouldn’t abuse such knowledge and power.

There is no reason to think that the Other Side consists mostly of dark entities or evil spirits. It’s quite the opposite, mostly Light. I think the reason why people have the impression that such dealings are with dark spirits only, is because any enlightened entity living on the Other Side will know that their presence and powers are hidden from us for a reason. They would therefore mostly choose not to interfere or intervene with us. But the scallies on the other side - the riff-raff and the spiritually unevolved – wouldn’t have the highest good for human beings in mind, and wouldn’t care a kipper about wisdom or compassion. Instead, they naturally take any opportunity to liaise and intervene with humans who are casually “dabbling”, regardless of intentions.

It is a serious business, seeking communion with Angels, and the best advice I can offer any 'new age' dabblers is this...Be careful what you awaken, lest you be unable to put it back to sleep

Too right Little Whip. We simply need to be careful. There are many scallies on the other side who can be difficult to shake off, and who might mislead us or guide us in the wrong direction. But there are also many enlightened beings from the other side, including the Angels, who are sent by God in good Spirit to assist us when we call to them.

In my view, if we want to deal or liaise with the occult – whether it be for assistance, or guidance or healing - the wisest thing to do is to go straight to the top - to our Master, Jesus Christ. Christ is supreme Lord and Head over all Creation, and possesses all power, all knowledge, and all wisdom. Why, then, would we want to aim any lower and liaise with anything less? Probably out of ignorance, or maybe because we feel like a bit of dabbling.

Either way, Christ – God - knows the highest good for each soul, and if we come to Him for guidance or assistance, He can orchestrate teams of angels and other enlightened beings - and often takes the task upon Himself - to assist us in the optimum way possible.

As Christ has our highest good in mind – which is spiritual growth and development - we need to discern whether our requests or dabbling come from our ego, (the wrong request and intention), or from the soul, (always the right request and intention). For example, if we ask the Other Side to assist us to win the lottery, then because it is in our soul’s highest interests to accumulate spiritual wealth before worldly wealth, then Christ would choose not to intervene until we grew up a bit more. (It might also be in our soul’s highest interest to experience a sense of “lack” in a worldly sense, in order to build up more inner muscle). This principle also applies to any karmic debts we might presently be paying off in this particular lifetime – like an ailment or an illness, in which case God again would not intervene. However, an unevolved entity from the other side might choose to intervene – if we permitted it - even though this wouldn’t necessarily be for our highest good, because our karmic debts would still be outstanding.

My advice is for true peace of mind, turn to Christ.

Fiddlesticks. God is to Christ what I am to the virus and the nematode - that, and infinitely more.

No Emperor. If you’re talking about Jesus the man – flesh and bone – then you’re right. But if you’re talking about Christ, the Spirit of God, who dwelt within Jesus the man – i.e. the Word made flesh - then you're not right. God, as Jesus, taught humanity many profound and esoteric truths. The crucifixion, amongst many other things demonstrated that God intimately shares and understands the world's suffering and pain. The resurrection demonstrated that death is not the end, and that a new body and new Creation awaits us after death. Christ is God’s way-shower and redeemer.

"The art of creating change, in accordance to will, using methods not currently understood by science."

That’s a good definition Little Whip. Science has a lot to discover, and humanity is nearing the end of materialistic scientific enquiry alone. The next phase of human evolution is psychic intuition and spiritual awareness, for sure. Science will eventually be forced to expand its sphere of inquiry into the inner phases of being, which includes the nature of consciousness and human spirituality, as well as the nature of God and our purpose on earth. As humanity comes of age and matures spiritually, man’s sixth sense will develop more acutely and will begin to transcend the 5 mortal senses alone. The hidden side of life will not remain hidden forever.

Christ is God’s way-shower and redeemer.

... (he also demonstrated that God’s nature is Personhood, rather than a vast impersonal Force, regarding the Godhead element of the Divine, incidentally)

ANDY BAKER

What makes you think psychics aren’t part of God’s plan in the first place? It’s not the psychic’s choice that he or she is born psychic, after all. If the psychic is illumined and guided by Christ, then a lot of good work can be done for God. Knowledge of the hidden side of life and the laws that govern them, (which is what occult teachings are about), can be of great benefit to people on this side who are ready for it, or who wouldn’t abuse such knowledge and power. There is no reason to think that the Other Side consists mostly of dark entities or evil spirits. It’s quite the opposite, mostly Light. I think the reason why people have the impression that such dealings are with dark spirits only, is because any enlightened entity living on the Other Side will know that their presence and powers are hidden from us for a reason. They would therefore mostly choose not to interfere or intervene with us. But the scallies on the other side - the riff-raff and the spiritually unevolved – wouldn’t have the highest good for human beings in mind, and wouldn’t care a kipper about wisdom or compassion. Instead, they naturally take any opportunity to liaise and intervene with humans who are casually “dabbling”, regardless of intentions.

Pseudo-Spiribabble
The spirits in prison are there for a reason, not for your whimsical astro-plane playground. We are specifically warned by God Himself not to partake in anything occult oriented. Not psychics, meduims, wizards, enchanters, necromancers, etc.
Familiar spirits are those who impersonate people who have lived in the past....Uncle billy....Caesar...Napoleon...'Ol Yeller. They have been here since the great kebow and have gained knowledge of everyone, including the notes they are taking while following you around in your psycho-babble induced state, just waiting for your invitation to tea.
The spirits in prison are those who are so aligned with Satan since his rebellion, that they refused to pass through the flesh, not wanting to risk being swayed back to God by being born innocent in the flesh and losing their past memories.
Make the Devil's playground your own if you will, but do not promote your dabblings onto others or you may find yourself presented with a debt you cannot possibly begin to pay.[/size][size="2"]

Hmm..interesting points...but I've already had my say on this matter. I dont think we should invoke anything, good Angels or not...Just let it all be....And since I hate discussing topics like this in too much detail...I'll let it be at that

I dont think we should invoke anything, good Angels or not...Just let it all be

Wise words pureintentions. Let it be, trust God, and be at peace.